Still No Answers in Aruba
AP Story: "Divers come up empty in Aruba search
Later, the team from Florida State University planned to search a lagoon using remote controlled sensors. They planned to check other sites suggested by local authorities over the next two days, said Dale Nute, a forensic scientist who was helping to coordinate the effort.
"If we find something we will call the police and bring it out to them," Nute said.
The search of the cavern and lagoon comes as a Texas-based group that has also searched for Natalee Holloway prepared to abandon its effort within days unless they found some sign of the teenager.
Holloway, 18, vanished in the early hours of May 30, hours before she was to catch a flight home after a five-day vacation celebrating her high school graduation with 124 classmates.
Joran van der Sloot, a 17-year-old who was with Holloway the last night she was seen in public, has been detained in connection with her disappearance.
Numerous searches by Dutch marines, Aruban investigators and volunteer rescue groups have failed to turn up any trace of the honors student.
Texas EquuSearch, a Dickenson, Texas-based volunteer group that has searched for more than two weeks, said two Navy SEAL divers were scheduled to come to the island to help look for the teen.
Tim Miller, director of Texas EquuSearch, said the group planned to halt their effort on Tuesday unless they found something.
Miller said prospects for success were slim and said he was convinced the girl was not on the island.
The Florida State divers, who arrived Friday evening, are instructors at the university's underwater crime scene investigation department in Panama City, Fla. They also planned to leave Aruba on Tuesday."
What's especially sad in this case, is that the FBI was never allowed to investigate this case or even really help. It might have been solved so much quicker without these inept Aruban investigators. Now with all but one of the suspects being released it seems that we might never know what happened. Any theories?
posted by Ashley @ 7:54 PM
56 comments
56 Comments:
This case is so sad; those 3 boys should have been held, expecially Joran. My mom and I think that this boy's father covered for his son(I think Joran did something to Natalee), and could have done something with the body. He could have even taken it out of the country.
What did you think of the extra DJ guy, I didn't really understand why they arrested him in the first place unless they just wanted information from him. There didn't seem to be any evidence that he was actually there or anything.
I was shocked that they let the Calpo brothers go, and Natalee's mother came out and called them criminals and then later had to apologize for it. :(
Do you think that Joran's father was involved in the actual murder? I was thinking that maybe he was the one recommending murder to his son, you know?
They released the DJ right? I don't understand why they arrested him either. The way Natalee's parents are being treated is so wrong; she shouldn't of had to apologize. You really think Joran's father prompted him to murder Natalee? Wow- never thought of that. How did you come up with that theory?
I forgot to say that I also think it's really weird how the boys changed their story about being with Natalee. Why would anyone do that? I also think that the brothers who were released could have been covering for Joran.
Just because he was a judge and was suspected of giving his son advice on what happened. I thought maybe if Joran did something to her, and then told his father, that his dad might have recommended thathe kill her so she wouldn't tell. You get the picture? Of course, I don't really know, just hypothesizing.
I was thinking that too, about the brothers. Like maybe they weren't really involved, they just covered for him. Because I saw their mother being interviewed and she really seemed very honest, unlike the Van Der Sloots. But they have admitted to changing stories, which should have been enough to keep them in jail!!!!
Oh, I see now. Yes, that is very possible. There is something very funny about the Van Der Sloots.
I don't think the Aruban officials know what they're doing... It's really sad. They release the prime suspects, blame the parents, have no idea where she is (on this tiny island), etc..... I tend to think the Van Der Sloots are the criminals.... But, yeah, the case is really sad.
Wow, guess me and Agent Tim are in the minority. Here's the thing:
(1) What was Natalee waltzing off without a chaperone for...I mean, they had chaperone's there!
(2) Why do her parents think they can tells a sovereign state what to do? It's a different country, like it or not, and they are doing the best they can with their [limited] resources.
(3) Last I checked, the fair way of viewing suspects is innocent until proven guilty. This is the same in our own country, guaranteed by our own bill of rights. Should we expect any less of Aruba?
For more, check out Agent Tim's article at http://www.agenttimonline.com/archives/2005/07/lets_be_friends.html
Right on MVB, and I don't think they're being malicious, I think they really don't know what to do. :(
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"Wow, guess me and Agent Tim are in the minority."
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Yeah, for once, lol.
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"(1) What was Natalee waltzing off without a chaperone for...I mean, they had chaperone's there!"
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Ah yes, the chaperones, another big factor in thise case. According to Bill O'Reilly's sources, the chaperones weren't following any of the students around. It seems like they just said " Have fun, watch out for drug dealers, and we'll be around". Very inept. Not that that's Natalee's fault either. She obviously made alot of mistakes on the night she disappeared but there's no point to attacking her further, she's paid the ultimate price for her mistakes.
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"Why do her parents think they can tells a sovereign state what to do? "
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Really, I can't think of anyone MORE qualified to complain about the Aruban government than them. It is THEIR daughter that's missing and probably murdered!! And they are watching the Arubans release people that they think are guilty or cuplable. I can't blame them at all for anything they say, 1.) because I don't know what I would do in this circumstance, and 2.) because last I checked they still had freedom of speech. Also, there is no reason on earth why a sovereign nation couldn't accept proferred aid in an investigation in which they have admitted they don't have expertise. It might be a pride thing for them, but it might cost the Holloways any knowledge of what happened to their daughter and it might mean that her killers go free. I don't know why they have to be quiet and happy about a case that the Arubans are obviously messing up badly.
And besides that they aren't forcing the Arubans to do what they want, they are just voicing their outrage.
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"It's a different country, like it or not, and they are doing the best they can with their [limited] resources."
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Yes, I'm sure they are trying, but they still made the wrong decision about the FBI, IMO. And just because they are doing their best doesn't mean that Natalee's parents don't have the right to be outraged and upset about the prospect of never having closure in this case.
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"3) Last I checked, the fair way of viewing suspects is innocent until proven guilty. This is the same in our own country, guaranteed by our own bill of rights. Should we expect any less of Aruba?"
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Ummm...no, but who is expecting that? If this case were reversed and it was an Aruban girl missing here in America I would be just as outraged about this case as I am now. I would still disapprove of releasing suspects who were witnessed to be the last people with Natalee, and have admitted to LYING to police about what happened that night. None of that necessarily means they're guilty, but it does make them extremely suspicious. Besides that, the prosecution obviously considered the Kalpoes suspects ( they are appealing the judge's decision) and yet they still couldn't hold onto them. Natalee's stepfather also said that if we knew what they knew of the case, we would be horrified that the Kaploes were ever released.
Thanks for the link...
Wow, great post Ashley!
The Holloway parents have the right to be outraged and speak out in any way. It's THEIR DAUGHTER who is missing. I know I would do the same thing!!!! This parent bashing is really silly.... Remember the Shiavo case???? Terri's parents were outraged over the state's actions and we supported them. Now, the Aruban government has released two of the prime suspects!!!! As Ashley pointed out, the chaperones were terrible.... And you say that they (the parents) don't have the right to be outraged. Ridiculous.
Look, I would be just as outraged about this as they would if it were my child - truly, I would. But attacking the people that are trying to help is NOT the way to go.
As for Aruba's rejection of assistance, this is mostly for security reasons on their part. They don't want to be another Puerto Rico...they want to maintain their independence. Besides, they have the Netherlands behind them, and with that, the EU (not being sarcastic, but it does seem that way in light of my *cough* less-than-thrilled attitude toward it.
I understand a lot of what you're saying, Ashley and I agree with the principles of it, but that can't change the facts of the case:
(1) There is plenty of reasonable doubt for the suspects...not enough evidence to keep them behind bars.
(2) Not that there aren't problems on both sides of the line in this case, but I think that the Holloways are being quite a hindrance to the Aruban authorities.
Not to sound rough or insensitive, but criminals have rights too.
Well, to tell you the truth, we know so little about this case that we really can't draw those conclusions. We don't know what evidence they have ( another lovely part of Dutch law). I can only hope that the Arubans can pull this off and bring justice for Natalee's parents, but I'm definitely not going to criticize what they are saying during this horrible time for them. I pity them too much for that. And what they choose to SAY shouldn't hinder the investigation in any way! If it is then the investigating Arubans are even more inept than I thought.
Oh, and as for the Arubans "trying to help" I must say that it is their JOB not their choice. They aren't "trying to help" they are trying to do what they are required by law to do.
I have a question: Does anyone know if Natalee was at that club by herself? I mean, weren't her classmates with her?
Yeah, her classmates were with her. I don't know how big the group was, but she wasn't alone. And it's very possible she was drugged...and that was why she left with Joran.
She could have been, or eitehr that she was drunk.
either :)
Oh, by the way David, I have to say that I strongly disagree with your views on the Aruban system and Natalee's parents. The Aruban officials have totally botched this case by not investigating as thouroughly as they should have, and by releasing the suspects! That would not have been done in America, and these boys were first-rate suspects(not to mention that they lied)! And how could you accuse the parents by saying they are getting in the way? All they are interested in is finding their daughter- is there anything wrong with that? It is so wrong that people are getting on Natalee's mother for speaking against these boys, and they could very well be the culprits. Why sympathize for the alleged culprits? Where is the sympathy for Natalee's parents and family? I'd like to see more of that.
You go Sara!!!! You are totally right about this... the brothers would never have been released here in America, not with the evidence we know is against them. The Aruban's standard of proof is obviously way higher than ours. And that gives the Holloways the perfect right to be upset about this. And a little more sympathy for the parents would be nice too.
I agree with everything Ashley, Sara and MVB has said. But I have a question for David. What do you mean by attacking? Natalee's parents are trying to find her.
You're right Sara E, the parents didn't attack anyone!! THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR DAUGHTER!! We have to give them a little slack; the officials arrest some guys, obviously have something on them, and then release them!! Remember, the parents know things that we don't. They might be outraged because of things that we don't know....As the girls said, these suspects would never be released in America......
Sara and MVB, I would seriously recommend Agent Tim's article on the topic (linked above).
That being said, Natalee's parents have said quite a bit, but they have also pestered (yes, pestered) Aruban officials who are trying to do their jobs (in the face of such hostility and pressure).
As Ashley stated, we know very little about the case so I would ask, Sara, that you not draw any conclusions about the evidence. Apparently, there was reasonable doubt in any evidence that they might have found.
Also, it is likely that these men would have been released in America. Again, if we knew what evidence was available, it would be easier to draw that sort of conclusion (or harder to do so, depending on the actual evidence). However, if there is reasonable doubt and we have nothing else on them, they would have been released.
Also, I think you're taking it a little far, assuming that Natalee is completely innocent in this. I mean, do we have to assume that something was done to her, or that she wasn't right (being drunk or drugged). She might have gone wherever of her own free will, sanely, in control of herself, etc.
I read most of Agent Tim's article and I don't see how that would have further bearing on this discussion seeing as he was mostly just expressing his opinion.
And what YOU have to say on this subject is horrible enough.
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"That being said, Natalee's parents have said quite a bit, but they have also pestered (yes, pestered) "
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Well, how DARE they pester? How DARE they be angry about this! How DARE they complain about the fact that their daughter is gone and the Arubans have no clue what happened to her and they don't seem to be able to keep the suspects in hand. Yes, how DARE they pester. You're right David, these people are inhumane. Pestering. Who do they think they are. It's not like they lost a dearly beloved daughter or anything.
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" so I would ask, Sara, that you not draw any conclusions about the evidence."
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And why would you ask her to do that? Are you in charge of this investigation? Do you have inside information? Why on earth are you in such a rush to defend the suspects? Sara can say whatever the heck she wants to. Freedom of speech still stands. And every crime analyst I have seen on TV have been saying the same things Sara is saying. I haven't even heard the most liberal defense attorneys saying what you are saying. Not that they won't. Blame the victim and defend the suspects is defense attorney 101.
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"Also, it is likely that these men would have been released in America."
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How do you know this? When was the last time one of our law enforcement officers arrested a SUSPECT in a murder case, just to have a judge release him? It doesn't happen here because we have a different system. That's fine with me, but that doesn't mean that we can't criticize it or point out it's flaws.
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"Also, I think you're taking it a little far, assuming that Natalee is completely innocent in this. "
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Wow, what a great point, David. You are absolutely unbelievable. Why the heck are we even investigating this? Why don't we just drop it all and blame her for everything that happened. It was her own fault she was killed, right? And we are really stretching it here, assuming that she was innocent. Maybe we should charge her in absence for her own murder; why don't we charge her with facilitating her own murder? Is that what you think? These guys aren't guilty it's all her own fault. She made them murder her. Way to go.
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"I mean, do we have to assume that something was done to her, or that she wasn't right (being drunk or drugged)."
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Another great point! She was ok with being murdered. She went right along with it. Why are we even blaming these guys anyway? They couldn't help killing her.
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"She might have gone wherever of her own free will, sanely, in control of herself, etc. "
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What are you saying here? That she went right along with them in the car while perfectly sober? Of course, that's possible and that would have been a huge mistake but not a sin. And the girl is most likely dead so what is the point in going after her? I mean really!!! Why not keep attacking her, she's only been murdered!
And why are you so interested in attacking her anyway? Why are you being so critical of her parents? And yet, you seem to have no problem with the murder suspects in this case. All you do is defend them and ask that we not "assume" things about them. But you are all eager to attack those who haven't comitted any crimes!!!!!!!!!!!! What's your point?
David: "Sara and MVB, I would seriously recommend Agent Tim's article on the topic (linked above)."
If Agent Tim has anything to say he can come over here and say it......
"That being said, Natalee's parents have said quite a bit, but they have also pestered (yes, pestered) Aruban officials who are trying to do their jobs (in the face of such hostility and pressure)."
Oh my, not pestering... Come on ,David, A GIRL IS MISSING AND PROBABLY DEAD!!!!! You choose to get angry at the parents, but tell us to leave the poor murder suspects alone????? Let me tell you, if one of my sisters were missing, my mom would pester everyone in the country no matter how hard they were trying to find her!!!! Is that a sin??????
"...so I would ask, Sara, that you not draw any conclusions about the evidence."
So YOU can draw the conclusion that Natalie might be drunk or on drugs, but Sara can't assume that these guys had something to do with her disappearance?????
"they would have been released."
You know full well that they would not have been released!!! Remember the Elizabeth Smart case????? The officials arrested this guy on suspicion of murder. They held him for over a YEAR!! It turned out that he wasn't the criminal but the officials held him anyway because they were suspicious. The parents have every right to be outraged, in America this would never happen!!!
"....Also, I think you're taking it a little far, assuming that Natalee is completely innocent in this. I mean, do we have to assume that something was done to her, or that she wasn't right (being drunk or drugged). She might have gone wherever of her own free will, sanely, in control of herself, etc..... "
So it's her fault she's been murdered????????????????? I thought you said we weren't supposed to draw any conclusions or surmises?
So,David, you think they should charge Natalee for forcing these poor boys to kill her? They are innocent because she made them do it???????
David, you are coming off as a jerk. You're opinions are really scary...........
I hope I'm not pestering you....:)
Ok, I watched some of the legal shows tonight, and have a little bit of an update for you.:)
First of all, Joe Scarborough had a reporter from Aruba on, and she said that NO ONE in Aruba condemns Natalee's mother. NO ONE. They all understand what she's going through.
Greta Van Susteren did an interview with Natalee's mother and she knows nothing about what happened to Natalee. She is totally kept in the dark by the investigators, she knows absolutely nothing about where her daughter is. The Arubans aren't even telling her what they think happened. It was a really sad story.
Tomorrow is the hearing for Joran's appeal ( to be released) and the prosecution is going to try to get the Kalpoe's re-arrested too. But Natalee's mother didn't seem to sure about what was happening. But the lie count for Joran, his father, and the Kalpoes is up to 18. Between all of them they have lied 18 times ( to investigators ) about what happened that night.
Also on Scarborough tonight, they were reporting that there is a witness that is saying he saw Joran punch Natalee in the face after she rebuffed him ( all this apparently at that bar they were at ). Makes one wonder why she would end up going anywhere with him after that, unless she were under the influence of something else ( whether it be drugs or alcohol). Although it would have to be extremely strong alcohol to make her go with someone that had just punched her. And besides Joran is the one claiming she was drunk, so I'm a little leery of that idea. If I were to guess, I would go with the possibility that he drugged her ( drugs are in abundance in Aruba, one of their biggest problems).
Wow! Great points Ashley and MVB! You guys are awesome- thanks fo much for backing me up(you too Sara E:). How have Natalee's parents pestered the Arubans David? What would you do if you were the parent in a case like this? Would you just sit back and say "Ok, who cares, it was just my daughter who got kidnapped and could be murdered for all I care." The parents have a RIGHT to be frustrated with the Aruban system- and it is all over the news that the Arubans messed this case up. Even the experts are saying so! I noticed that you didn't reply to what I said about the Arubans botching this case- do you think it was a good idea for them to not allow the FBI in? I mean really, look at them now!!!!!!! How has not allowing any help from the US HELPED THEM???? And I'm sorry if I'm coming off like a mean person, but I am really annoyed about this statement you made-
"As Ashley stated, we know very little about the case so I would ask, Sara, that you not draw any conclusions about the evidence."
Excuse me??? As Ashley stated, last time I checked, I have freedom of speech too, so I can express my feelings toward this case just as much as you can! I'm not saying that all of what I stated could have happened- but hey! they were just theories for goodness sakes! That's what Ashley SAID she wanted us to post- she asked for THEORIES!!!!
"Also, I think you're taking it a little far, assuming that Natalee is completely innocent in this."
What? When did I say that?? I didn't say anything about Natalee being innocent. But she very well could be from what Ashley posted. OK, maybe she did make a mistake if she willingly went off with those guys thinking she was going to have a good time- but do you think she planned on being murdered? Everyone makes mistakes David, and now isn't the time for getting on Natalee if she made any. And it's almost obvious this poor(yes, and I mean it!) girl could have been murdered, so it's unfair to draw conclusions about her being, as you call it, "sanely in control of herself". If I'm not allowed to draw conclusions about what may have happened- why are you allowed?
Absolutely Sara!! You can say anything you want. :) And you are totally right. ;)
Oh, and YOU are definitely not coming off as a mean person, Sara!!!!!
Thanks Ash :)
If Agent Tim has anything to say he can come over here and say it......
Except two things:
(1) Agent Tim isn't aware of this blog.
(2) He wrote an article to tell us what he has to say of it.
So YOU can draw the conclusion that Natalie might be drunk or on drugs
I said nothing of the sort...someone else suggested that she was drunk or drugged...my suggestion was that she might have been just fine at the time.
I thought you said we weren't supposed to draw any conclusions or surmises?
I have not drawn any conclusions regarding this area at all...I have only been giving possibilities - possibilities that don't make the assumption Natalee's an angel in disguise.
The officials arrested this guy on suspicion of murder. They held him for over a YEAR!!
Which, I must inform you, is a direct violation of this man's consitutional rights.
David, you are coming off as a jerk. You're opinions are really scary...........
Sorry if it looks that way...really. It's rather unfortunate that a typed page can't express the tone of voice, or emotion, etc. (aside from anger of course). I have nothing by sympathy for Natalee and her family, but that doesn't mean I have to look at this case subjectively.
they were reporting that there is a witness that is saying he saw Joran punch Natalee in the face after she rebuffed him
Out of curiosity, do you know if they are paying people for information? If that's so, this could be faked...even if it isn't, it's still under question because it's ONE witness who has waited THIS LONG to come forward.
I noticed that you didn't reply to what I said about the Arubans botching this case- do you think it was a good idea for them to not allow the FBI in?
I may not believe it was the best way for Aruba to go, but that can't change the facts: Aruba had every right to deny access, as they are a sovereign nation. The law is the law, and that's just the way it is, sometimes for the best and sometime's not.
As Ashley stated, last time I checked, I have freedom of speech too, so I can express my feelings toward this case just as much as you can!
I wasn't saying "don't say anything else" or anything like that. My request was that your theories had conclusions that you expressed as probable reality...not ideas...
If I'm not allowed to draw conclusions about what may have happened- why are you allowed?
As I told MVB, I haven't drawn conclusions, just offered possibilities (and labeled them as such) that were not being considered (considering the Natalee-is-nearly-perfect atmosphere here).
If I'm coming off as harsh, I'm sorry, that's not how I'm writing this. I have the deepest sense of sympathy and pity for Natalee's family.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
"(2) He wrote an article to tell us what he has to say of it."
Yes, and I read that article David. I'm surprised you didn't get on him for acting like he knew what was going on. Saying that Natalee's mom was being paid for getting upset over her daughter's disappearance is certainly not nice to say. And he was totally acting like he knew what happened in the case! I'm surprised you even wanted us to look at the article!
"I wasn't saying "don't say anything else" or anything like that. My request was that your theories had conclusions that you expressed as probable reality...not ideas..."
Well, David, I have been giving possibilities as well. I didn't say "This is what happened and that's that." Why do you keep insisting that I am? In all of my posts I've said things like "Could have happened", I didn't say that my thoughts on the case were right!
I have not drawn any conclusions regarding this area at all...I have only been giving possibilities - possibilities that don't make the assumption Natalee's an angel in disguise.
Well, I have been giving "possibilities" too, just like you have. And I have not said anything about Natalee being this kind of angel- but I don't understand why you keep saying such mean things about her. You say you have sympathy for Natalee and her family, well, I'm not seeing this so-called sympathy from you.
"Out of curiosity, do you know if they are paying people for information? If that's so, this could be faked...even if it isn't, it's still under question because it's ONE witness who has waited THIS LONG to come forward."
There we go again with the whole idea of paying people in this case. Now if I said something like that you would have told me that I was stating this as a fact. David, did you know that as soon as Joran and the brothers were brought in as suspects, that Joran was very shaken and kept saying that he buried Natalee? And that was when his father stepped in. And what do you have to say about the father and these boys lying up to 18 times?
"As I told MVB, I haven't drawn conclusions, just offered possibilities (and labeled them as such) that were not being considered (considering the Natalee-is-nearly-perfect atmosphere here)."
Again, NONE OF US HAVE SAID NATALEE IS PERFECT! Your attitude toward this whole case stinks. You know what, maybe Natalee did walk into her murder by her actions, but like you said, we shouldn't be drawing conclusions, which is what you have been doing. You know how you're coming off? Your attitude is like this, "Well, serves Natalee right for maybe being murdered because it was her fault she was killed." As I said David, we all make mistakes. Natalee was probably not a Christian, and maybe she was wild or not responsible, but that doesn't mean we start pointing fingers at her.
"If I'm coming off as harsh, I'm sorry, that's not how I'm writing this."
David, you ARE coming off as harsh and that is how you are writing your "thoughts" on this issue. I'm sorry to say this but it's the truth- you sound very judgemental.
I think our disagreements on this issue come down to this.
You, David, think that Natalee went willingly with her killers and because of her bad judgement somewhat deserved to be killed. The problem is that YOU are assuming that Natalee was a bad person, and yet you lecture us because we are thinking that the van Der Sloots are bad people. The problem is that YOU don't know what Natalee did that night!! You don't know that she went with him willingly, and YOU don't know that if she did, she went with him with sinful intentions. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!!!! But yet you are judging her and portraying her as the criminal in this case. YES, she may have made a bad decision but does that COME CLOSE to comparing with the crime of murder? NO!! It surely doesn't!!!
And choosing to trash the character of a murder victim is low. She's already dead, what bigger punishment do you want for her? She's paid the ultimate price for her mistakes ( if it was her mistake). Why you continue to attack her is beyond me! She's dead! And even if she did make a mistake does that negate the guilt of her killers in this case?
Why do you continue to make an issue of her choices that night? I don't see that it has any bearing on the criminal case, because no matter what choice she made, someone else chose to kill her! Her killer should be the center of this case... not the mistakes you think she made.
And like you keep preaching to us.... we don't know what happened! We don't know what she thought or why she did what she did! We don't know and therefore it is wrong to make assupmtions about her character.
And we do not know who is guilty in this case. All we know is the evidence that has been released. We KNOW that the suspects in this case have lied to investigators over and over ( acrime which would have guaranteed their incarceration here in America), but we don't know for sure what happened. All we have is suspicions. And that is all we are voicing. Just our opinions and theories. We don't know who's guilty or what happened. So stop accusing us of doing otherwise.
Great post Ashley!
David's suggestions:
"She might have gone wherever of her own free will, sanely, in control of herself, etc."
"..I think that the Holloways are being quite a hindrance to the Aruban authorities."
"...my suggestion was that she might have been just fine at the time."
"If that's so, this could be faked..."
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Sara's suggestions:
"I think that this boy's father covered for his son..."
"I also think it's really weird how the boys changed their story about being with Natalee."
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David, as you see Sara did NOT draw a conclusion, but was doing the SAME THING you were doing!! Why tell HER to stop???
David: "My request was that your theories had conclusions that you expressed as probable reality...not ideas..."
What??? Look at your own posts!!! You have drawn the conclusion ( not based on any facts) that Natalee went with the boys on her own free will!! And yet you tell Sara to stop coming up with theories or guesses??????? Why?
David: "...so I would ask, Sara, that you not draw any conclusions about the evidence."
Where did she draw a single conclusion???????Where?????
David: "...I have nothing but sympathy for Natalee and her family"
The only sympathy that you have shown is for the Aruban officials, that is why you are coming off badly. Why do you choose to attack the victim and her parents??????
Just some things I missed the first time around...
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"As I told MVB, I haven't drawn conclusions, just offered possibilities (and labeled them as such) that were not being considered (considering the Natalee-is-nearly-perfect atmosphere here)."
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First of all, just because I brought up the POSSIBILITY that Natalee was drugged doesn't mean I think she's perfect. And I wasn't the one who invented the idea, it's something being investigated. The police are looking into it, but I guess they really shouldn't bother since you know what really happened and you're sure she went with the guys willingly....
And just because we aren't saying what you want us to say about this case doesn't mean we haven't considered it. The idea that we haven't is quite arrogant. Just because we have chosen to give the VICTIM the benefit of the doubt in this case, doesn't mean we think she is anywhere near perfect. I don't think she was perfect, or close to perfect, but I still don't think that attacking her character serves any purpose whatsoever. We were discussing theories about what might have happened to her, not her character flaws. If you want to discuss that start your own thread and call it " Was Natalee Flawed". I'm sure that would be an edifying conversation.
Clearly, ( from that comment of yours), it's not that you don't like us making conclusions, it's that you simply don't like what we're saying. You disagree with us, that's all. And that's fine with me. But that doesn't give you the right to act all high and mighty and lecture us about what we should be saying in this case.
Clearly, you dislike the Holloways and especially Natalee ( as evidenced by your unreasonable drive to prove her guilty of some sin) and that's your perogative. You can say or think whatever you want on this case, but I think this discussion would be better served if you desisted from telling us what we should or shouldn't say.
You have the right to your negative opinion of the victims, and we have the right to our negative opinions of the suspects. That doesn't give either of us the right to tell each other what to say or think, or to act so condescending. A discussion on the facts of this case is fine, but we don't have all the facts. I started this thread to discuss theories that's all. There's no way we can draw any concrete conclusions about the case because the Arubans are so tight lipped about it. Therefore, everything we say on here is nothing but ideas.. or possibilities.
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"Out of curiosity, do you know if they are paying people for information? "
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Out of curiosity, have you considered the possibility that this report was correct? Or are you so bent on proving that Natalee deserved what happened that you dismissed it without consideration?
Oh, and one other thing. Who exactly do you think is doing the "paying"? Is it the Aruban legal system that you cherish so much, or is it the parents that you seem to despise?
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"Aruba had every right to deny access, as they are a sovereign nation..."
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Of course they had that right. No one on here is saying they don't. All we are saying is that Aruba made the wrong decision. Of course it was their right to make that wrong decision but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it. I don't know why you are so obsessed with defending them either...., it's like you have a personal vendetta against the Holloways, do you know them or something? I mean, seriously, your attitude towards them is terrible... they lost their daughter and we should all be able to overlook the things that they have done that might "annoy" us.
If Laci hadn't married Scott Peterson she wouldn't be dead. If Lori hadn't married Mark Hacking she wouldn't be dead either. Obviously the marriage choices of Lori and Laci cost them both their lives. Does that mean we should sit around and blame them and give their killers a pass??? I mean, seriously, we all make mistakes!!
Natalee probably made several stupid, careless mistakes ( perhaps even sinful) the night she disappeared. But that could happen to any of us. We ALL make mistakes, we all do stupid things, and we ALL sin. Does that mean we all deserve to be murdered?
Seriously, if I ever made a stupid mistake that made me a victim of a crime, I would hope and pray that you wouldn't be anywhere near the jury box, since you seem to think that mistakes outweigh the crime of murder or any other violent crime.
Wow Ash! Great points!
David, I know you're probably tired of hearing from me, but I wanted to say this.
When I first heard of this case, believe it or not, I was thinking- "Well, this girl shouldn't have been at a bar, and she shouldn't have gone off with some strange guys either(this was all I knew at the time)." Maybe this is true, but I was looking for a plank in someone else's eye; and believe me, I know I must have even larger planks to worry about in my own life! And I was skeptical over the 3 boys being guilty too when I heard some of their stories of Natalee. But now I think otherwise, now that more evidence has been shed on the case. Not long after, I started feeling compassion and pity for the Holloway family, and I stopped being judgemental towards Natalee.
It is only the human nature to want to point fingers and look at other people and find all of the mistakes they have made in their lives. Honestly though, if we just looked at our own lives and tried to correct the mistakes we have made, maybe we'll get somewhere!
It is so easy to point fingers at someone else when they make a mistake- believe me I know. Look David, there is no point in even commenting and arguing with you over this case if we keep going around in circles. If we can't agree on this topic of not blaming Natalee for what happened, I don't think you and I have anything more to talk about. I hope for your sake that you stop pointing fingers at Natalee for what she might have done to contibute to her murder. It really is the right thing to do David.
Oh, and I wanted to say that your last post was really great too MVB!
Excellent points, Sara. And I really felt the same way you did Sara, at the beginning of this case. And that was mostly because I didn't know that much about it. And I was hearing stories about what she was doing that night, which I took for granted until I learned that those reports were coming from the suspects. And of course they ( the Van Der Sloots and Kaploes) later took back almost everything they originally said. It's a shame that we don't know enough about this case to draw any real conclusions... I guess it's hard to have a debate when we really don't know that much for sure. I wish we could agree not to blame the victims, but obviously we're not using the same mentality to view this case.
Believe it or not, everyone, but I think we're all on the same page. What I saw in this thread was an imbalance in the possibilities and sought to balance it out some...so at least everything is considered. I honestly don't know what happened, and I probably never will. I made suggestions that weren't being made and I understand that wasn't popular but you do realize that if they had been made, I would have kept my mouth shut - not because I necessarily disagree or agree with any of them...but because all the options would have been presented. That was my sole aim in this, not to make Natalee or her family out to be crooks or something like that.
[Although, I do find it interesting that I'm using man's depravity in an argument with Presbyterians ;) ]
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Correction David, I'm a Reformed Baptist, not a Presbyterian. :) So no more arguing over this case ok? I think we have come to some sort of understanding. However, I don't think there was an "imbalance in the conversation." But let's not start all over again. I just want to say that if you didn't mean to get on Natalee and her parents David, maybe you should have worded your feelings differently. But no hard feelings ok?
Well, that's just great, David! I'm so happy to learn that I have been wasting my time, energy, and emotions on this debate when all you were trying to do was remind me of my own beliefs!! This entire thread was ruined because we spent more time attacking Natalee and the Holloways, then spending time on the actual point of this thread.
And why did we do that? Because, you tell us, you were trying to remind us idiots about total depravity!
And this whole "imbalance" thing is ridiculous. THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN IMBALANCE!!!!! You know why???? Because Natalee didn't commit murder!!!! That's why there was an imbalance!!! What the heck was the point to criticizing her when she wasn't the one that committed the crime???? Natalee and the murder suspects cannot be criticized equally because their actions are no where near being equal!!!!!
And I really thought you had a point you were trying to make.....I am so glad this whole thing is over, now that I know how pointless it was...
Hey, its okay girls....:)
We can continue this thread anyway.. why not?
Here is an update:
"An anonymous tip has led Aruban authorities to the discovery of foot-long strands of hair attached to a piece of duct tape, in a remote area of the island called Boca Tortuga, FOX News reports.
The hair reportedly washed ashore and was found in a cave; divers arrived on the scene for an in-depth search of the area, that has not yet produced any evidence.
Aruban police told FOX News that four strands of hair will undergo DNA testing in Holland to determine if they are those of Natalee Holloway; results may be available as soon as Tuesday.
Still in custody, Joran van der Sloot, the sole suspect in the disappearance, was taken by Dutch authorities to the beach where he claims to have last seen Holloway in an attempt to retrace his steps. Van der Sloot, 17, admitted to being alone with 18-year-old Holloway on a beach near the Marriott Hotel, before she went missing May 30.
Police report the visit was "part of the investigation," and it is not the first time van der Sloot has revisited the area.
Van der Sloot faces no charges, authorities can hold him until Sept. 4 when he must be charged or released. Six other men detained at various times during the investigation have been released."- All Headline News
Now, lets start again.. Any theories?
Wow! I wonder if the strands really belong to Natalee! If so, maybe this case will be wrapped up more quickly than we thought. Well, as long as David realizes that I'm not stating my thoughts as the truth, sure! I'll be glad to state any theories on what might be going on. Can't think of anything right now though. However, I still THINK (and I said think- not know) that Joran is guilty, and the two brothers could have POSSIBLY covered for him. But wasn't Joran released? I thought he was...
Hey, its okay girls....:)
Awww.. thanks MVB- you've been so great!. :)
I also wanted to comment on Ashley's last post. I'm not trying to start this all over again(and I didn't say this in my last post) but I did find it a little annoying, David, when you made that comment about man's depravity. And like we didn't know that? More and more I'm feeling frustrated because throughout this whole post we WERE mainly talking about Natalee and her parents and how you thought they were wrong. And then you said you didn't mean to attack them? Hold on a minute...I'm a little confused...
However, if you wanted to make those points about Natalee and her family, I think you could have done it in a less judgemental way. You could have done it without getting on me for commenting on this case, and you could have made your thoughts more like plain theories! The way you stated what you said was written in such a way that it sounded like you thought Natalee WAS responsible for her death, and that you seriously thought everything you said was really true. After reading your post again, David, all these things came to mind. Like Ashley said, we could have saved alot of time if you had only been clearer in what your intentions were.
Sara, you are awesome. I would like to start this whole theory thing all over again, but maybe we should all agree to disclaimers so David doesn't accuse us of jumping to conclusions.
I, Ashley, do solemnly promise that the theories I will put forth on this thread ( unless otherwise stated) are just theories and nothing more. I will not jump to conclusions about anything in this case unless my theories are proven by police findings or discoveries. :)
mvb said:"Hey, its okay girls....:)"
Yeah, I know, just had to get my emotions under control. :) I was very upset last night and for most of this week but I feel better now that the debate is over. :)
It will be very interesting to see if that hair does match Natalee's, but why on earth did they have to send it all the way to Holland? *sigh* That will mean a longer wait for the family, but if they've waited this long then they can make it a bit longer.. Honestly, I will be impressed if the Arubans can manage this case and bring some closure for the family.
But if this duct tape does turn out to be connected to this case, then that would probably mean her body was dumped in the ocean ( since I believe the tape was washed ashore). Which of course means that we might never find her body. And then we can only pray that what Paul Van Der Sloot told Joran isn't true..."no body, no case"...
I heard an interesting theory today... maybe these suspects didn't mean to kill Natalee ( which would explain why Joran kept saying he "buried" Natalee, and didn't mention killing her). Maybe he drugged her and she died from that or perhaps from whatever they were doing to her on the beach. And then if she died from that ( or drugs) the boys might have panicked and called their father who in turn advised them to hide the body ( again, his suspicious statement.."no body, no case"). Just an idea. :) Don't know anything for a fact.
"But wasn't Joran released? I thought he was... "
Nope! Thank God he is still in custody!
Ok, I guess I will too!
I, Zachary do solemnly promise that the theories I will put forth on this thread ( unless otherwise stated) are just theories and nothing more. I will not jump to conclusions about anything in this case unless my theories are proven by police findings or discoveries.
Ashley: "It will be very interesting to see if that hair does match Natalee's, but why on earth did they have to send it all the way to Holland?"
They sent it to Holland???? Is this part of their "can't let America help us with the case we messed up so badly" thing?
Sara: "But wasn't Joran released? I thought he was... "
Well, the way the Aruban officials are handling this, its only a matter of time before he is....
Oooohhh...Ashley that is a thought. Do you think that all 4 of them could have been possibly drunk, and that one of the boys could have accidentally done something to Natalee then?
I better make the solemn vow too. :)
I, Sara, do solemnly promise that the theories I will put forth on this thread ( unless otherwise stated) are just theories and nothing more. I will not jump to conclusions about anything in this case unless my theories are proven by police findings or discoveries.
Dang, work has taken me away from this far too long....
And I really thought you had a point you were trying to make.....I am so glad this whole thing is over, now that I know how pointless it was...
I was trying to make a point - seriously, it just isn't necessarily my point. I can understand your irritation, though...
As far as the "There's supposed to be an imbalance" part goes: objectivity is balanced...I mean, if you want this to remain subjective, that's fine.
LOL...disclaimers...As far as I'm concerned, I've made any point that needed to be made and I look forward to reading your theories (definitely interesting ones there...yinz should write a murder mystery one of these days...). (I want an autographed copy, btw!)
God Bless!
PS: Ash, it wasn't wasted time. "Iron sharpens iron" and you definitely could have won this in an official debate...
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"I was trying to make a point - seriously, it just isn't necessarily my point."
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You are SO exasperating!!!!! Whose point was it then? And why on earth are you advocating it if it wasn't yours? And furthermore WHAT was the point???
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"objectivity is balanced...I mean, if you want this to remain subjective, that's fine."
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Ummm... so I take it that you think its subjective to assume a crime was committed?? And what about our debate was not "objective", seriously? You know what... how is that translators course coming along? ( the one you were making so we could understand what the heck you are talking about) Because I seriously need it. :)
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"As far as I'm concerned, I've made any point that needed to be made "
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So you have nothing left to say? Because if you do, I really must insist that you take our solemn vow...:)
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"and you definitely could have won this in an official debate..."
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FINALLY! Something we can all agree on, lol! :)
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"Oooohhh...Ashley that is a thought. Do you think that all 4 of them could have been possibly drunk, and that one of the boys could have accidentally done something to Natalee then?"
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Hey Sara! I don't know about that, because then they wouldn't have needed duct tape, right? If the duct tape even is part of this case. They wouldn't have needed all this cover-up either. But anyway, there are alot of witnesses coming out so it will be interesting to see what happens over the next week or so.
That's very true...
I wonder if they will find Natalee's body in that lake- it is a really disturbing thought.
Update:
"Another intriguing lead in the two-month old search for Natalee Holloway came to nothing, as the FBI concluded that strands of blond hair stuck to duct tape did not come from the missing Alabama teenager.
The hair, which was found on July 17, was subjected to genetic testing at the FBI crime lab in Quantico, Va., and the results showed they were not from the 18-year-old who has been missing since May 30, said spokeswoman Judy Orihuela.
"It wasn't Natalee's hair," Orihuela said.
A park ranger found the duct tape while collecting trash on Aruba's northeast coast — the opposite side of the island from where the Alabama woman was last seen in public.
"I was completely relieved" by the FBI results, said Beth Holloway Twitty, the teen's mother. "Everytime we exhaust something like this it's a possibility that Natalee is still alive."
A sample of the hair also was tested at a crime lab in the Netherlands, but the results have not been released.
Aruban government spokesman Ruben Trapenberg said he doubted the Dutch results would differ from the FBI's findings. Aruba, a Dutch protectorate, doesn't have a lab to conduct the genetic testing.
"The hair was never something we considered significant but it needed to be checked out," Trapenberg said.
The news came as authorities in Aruba neared the end of an effort to drain a pond near a hotel and tennis club that has become a focus in the investigation. Holloway disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Caribbean island.
Extensive searches by Dutch marines, Aruban police and some 2,000 volunteers have found no trace of her.
No one has been charged in the case and Joran van der Sloot, 17, is the only person detained as a suspect. Two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, were previously held and released.
Crews expected to finish draining the pond on Friday, said Gabriel Kelly, a spokesman for the island's fire department, which was coordinating the effort.
"So far we haven't found anything out of the ordinary," Kelly said.
A lawyer for Holloway's mother and stepfather said the search was prompted by a witness who came forward last week and reported seeing van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers near the pond on the night of the teenager's disappearance.
The witness told investigators that he saw the Dutch youth and his friends driving near the pond on May 30 between 2:30 and 3 a.m. — a time they previously told investigators they were already home — said the attorney, Vinda de Sousa.
Authorities last week took DNA samples from van der Sloot and the two brothers, telling defense attorneys the DNA would be compared to undisclosed material found by investigators.
Holloway, from Mountain Brook, Ala., vanished after an evening at a nightclub that she left with the three young men, hours before she was to fly home at the end of a trip with 124 classmates." -AP
Well, now the authorities are searching through a dump in Southern Florida. I guess they got a tip that she might be buried there.
Thanks for the update, MVB!
You're welcome!
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